There. I fixed it.
…Although the Pope really doesn’t have quite so many negative connotations/prejudices against him…but it was the best parallel I could think of :/
I keep seeing this pic going around, and it keeps bothering me. It’s a cute concept…except that’s not what satanism and paganism are in respect to each other.
Paganism is umbrella term for all non-abrahamic religions. Depending on the beliefs of the person worshiping satan, they may or may not believe in any of the abrahamic religious systems at all. In the end it really depends on the person and their path, as well as how they choose to identify. (Also, Satan=/=Lucifer=/=evil. Just saying.) I’m not a satanist myself, so I’d really prefer not to get into the details with anyone who cares to disagree.
I’m just saying that I disagree with the picture that’s been going around and I don’t think it’s fair to exclude one group because of it’s negative connotations, or because everyone immediately assumes that those who worship Satan are just doing Christianity/Judaism backwards - because from what I’ve read from people who identify as satanists, as well as those who actually worship Satan as an entity specifically, to say that no pagans worship Satan is incorrect (and to some quite offensive). Again, it’s not my belief system, so don’t use me as a source.
So basically, as far as I’m aware, not all pagans worship Satan, but many (not all) people who worship Satan identify as pagan…just as not all Christians follow the word of the Pope (i.e. Catholics vs. Protestants), but most people who follow the word of the Pope identify as Christian.
I just thought I’d put it out there. :T
No one that worships Satan is a pagan because Satan is a Abrahamic entity. Anyone who worships or believes in Satan is accepting Abrahamic mythos and is, thus, not a pagan as he accepts God/Jehova/Allah as the one true god. You can’t believe in Shiva and say that you’re a Germanic pagan. The metaphysical frameworks aren’t compatible. The picture is right without your bullshit correction.
Oh my GAWD guys, I can’t deal with all this fuckery this early in the morning.
“You can’t believe in Shiva and say that you’re a Germanic pagan”
Wtf. I can’t guys. I’ve run out of tolerance here.Not a compelling argument, bro. Germanic pagan beliefs carry with it a metaphysical framework (like any religion) detailing the creation of the universe, a system of ethics, etc, etc. Likewise, so do Hindu beliefs. If we define a Vishnu as a creator that created the world and accept its existence, then we can’t go and say we believe in Odin because according to the Norse canon, Odin was the one to create the world. Thus, believing in one entity both negates other metaphysical frameworks and carries with it the overt implication that you believe in the rest of the corresponding framework (to accept the belief in Odin, for example, you have to accept that he’s the son of Bor and, thus, accept Bor’s existence too).
Satan is defined as Lucifer, the creature God cast out of heaven to reign over hell. To believe in him, you have to believe in the Christian canon that created him. As without God, whom the Christian canon define as the only God, there would be no Satan. Being a pagan and believing in Satan at the same time is semantically impossible. Believing in Satan means you believe in a monotheistic religion while being Pagan means you’re a polytheist.
Oh really? Please, tell me more about what my beliefs are, what I should and shouldn’t believe.
I also like how you assume that we’re talking about the Lucifer found in Christian mythos, without bothering to consider the god of the same name found within Roman mythos. That right there should be enough to discredit your little monotheism/polytheism rant, but I’m going to continue because I do personally use Abrahamic literature moreso in my practice than Roman mythos.
Following your train of logic, I should be a Christian and not a Luciferian, because I would also have to believe the ‘metaphysical framework’ that defines Lucifer as the polar opposite of god, as the ‘evil’ that balances out God’s infinite ‘good’. I should believe that his exile was justified, and that he wants to make mankind miserable. I should also believe that his creator is all-knowing and all-powerful, the ‘one true god’.
But I don’t, which kind of messes up the little box you’re trying to make my beliefs fit into. And by that same rationality, hundreds of other self-labelled Christians are in fact not Christian because they don’t believe in the bible word-for-word.
Faith and belief doesn’t work as an ‘all or nothing’ system.
There’s no Satan in Roman mythos. Stop pulling shit off your ass. There may be a similar deity, but so there are in countless other religions. It doesn’t change anything I’ve been saying.
A metaphysical framework explains the universe but consideration of right and wrong are still subjectively defined. If I believe that I will burn in hell if I do certain things and chill in Heaven if I do other things, I might opt for the former if I personally find burning in hell attractive.
Christians that don’t believe the bible word for word reject certain things as constructed and not part of actual Christian scripture, but these are always minor in nature. They agree on a basic religious framework that allows us to call them Christian. If they reject major Christian mythos, they are Deists. Not Christians. They simply wouldn’t meet the definition of the word.
Whether you like it or not, when we use a term such as Pagan or Christian we use it to refer to stablished beliefs. Of course you can have your own made up religion, window shopping from different entities in different religions and mixing them however the fuck you want into your own little incoherent framework, but don’t go and say you’re Hindu when it’s not the Hindu canon or that you’re a Germanic pagan when it’s not a Germanic canon. Call it your own shit because that’s what you’re doing, making shit up. That Final Fantasy decided to name an ice casting summon Shiva doesn’t make worshipping a video game summon a Hindu belief.
I didn’t say satan, I said Lucifer. He was a minor god in the Roman pantheon, do some research.
And ‘pagan’ is not an established belief. Ask five different pagans what they believe, you’ll get ten different answers.
So let me get this straight, you want me to own up to what my beliefs are and not go calling them something they’re not, right? Well, lets see:
Luciferian: I believe in and honor Lucifer as my patron god, so, yes, I think I fit into this rather nicely. Luciferianism as a’religion’(I use the term religion loosely here, because I don’t like to refer to it as such) does not necessitate the belief in the metaphysical framework dictated by christianity.
Pagan: Contrary to popular belief, not all pagans are polytheistic. They don’t even have to believe in gods. This is an umbrella term which encompasses several different belief systems, but are similar in their separation and distinctions from the ‘big three’ faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I personally am polytheistic, which in itself is not part of the tenants of either of these three belief systems.
So, I see no problem in how I choose to refer to my faith.
http://omourningstar.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/disparaging-remarks/
I acknowledge that the comparison to following the Pope wasn’t the absolute best one to make. I honestly couldn’t think of anything better. But I do think it’s important to talk about satanism and paganism in respect to each other in order to help dispel ignorance and misinformation. I only hope that this whole debate leads to a lot more understanding amongst everyone in the pagan community on tumblr. I’m glad you posted that information.
So, as a Catholic who took some time to study other religions and his own I’d like to chime in a couple of details. 1. Satan and Lucifer might not necessarily be the same entity. In Second Peter 1:19 Lucifer (sometimes Morning Star) is used without relation to the Devil. 2. To believe in a god is different than to worship a god. Just as there are those who believe Jesus existed and did good works (or preformed miracles) but wasn’t the Messiah, you can believe a god exists without believing their story is the right one. To believe does not mean to worship, nor to believe in the tale.
If you want a few better example, let’s go with something more mundane. We can believe in the 300 Spartans but we don’t have to believe they did what they did with out the help of other Grecians. We can believe in Wyatt Earp, but we don’t have to believe his epic tale is accurate. We can believe Eliott Ness existed, but we don’t have to believe he was a brave law man who took on the mob and Al Capone in the style of a hero.
ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME.
OHMYGOD CAN I JUST PLEASE KILL MYSELF I HATE MYSELF ARE THEY TRYING TO BE STUPID NO JUST NO STOP BEING AN IDIOT AND UGH I AM ALREADY DYING I HATE THESE PEOPLE WHAT THE FUCK SUCH A GOOD BOOK STOP TRYING TO RUINING CLASSICS WITH YOUR GREED OF MAKING MONEY
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH WORDS OR PROPER GRAMMATICAL CONVENTIONS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE TO PROPERLY EXPRESS THE NEGATIVE REACTION I AM HAVING TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS AN ACTUAL THING.
*CRIES*
Wouldn’t… that just be… Supernatural? Only, really bad.
trenchwarfaretoo replied to your link: 8 hurt in shooting after Oklahoma City Thunder playoff win.
Can we leave aside the insanity of fandom and talk about the insanity of guns?Guns alone do not hurt people. People hurt people. It could have just as easily been a knife fight… which has happened twice that I can remember due to the OSU/OU rivalry.
You can take away their guns… but they are just going to find another tool to kill people with.
This is a new cartoon I can appreciate. Plus, getting kids into cars is awesome.
The Burners - Motorcity - Disney XD Official (by disneyxd)
merefolderol replied to your photo: This isn’t funny… this is inspiring. (via Dinner…
Gag!
And you call yourself a lover of mea… wait that was innuendo wasn’t it?
(via E-merl.com - Brain Fist)
This is real, from an edition of Cosmopolitan if you didn’t know.
Um. No. Food is for the kitchen. And sugar plus genitalia equals things like yeast infections and fungal infections… that’s gross.
(Source: hellomynameissteph, via mere-folderol)
